Off The Main Thread Podcast

The Apple PWA Ban

In this episode, Jake chats about the latest EU ruling that requires Apple to allow other browser engines on iOS, and how Apple is reacting to it.

If you want to do something about it, sign the OWA's open letter to Tim Cook.

Resources:

Transcript
  1. Surma:Now I'm just checking that macOS isn't doing the thing.
  2. Surma:Oh, that was an interesting realization!
  3. Surma:So I'm playing League of Legends. I have for many years.
  4. Surma:I mainly only play it because it's something I started playing
  5. Surma:with my best friends back in Berlin.
  6. Surma:And that is our excuse to have a Skype call to catch up.
  7. Surma:Because men can't just have a phone call.
  8. Surma:You need to play a video game so you have a reason to talk.
  9. Jake:I actually do the same with my dad. We play Rocket League.
  10. Jake:At the same time. It's having a catch-up. Yeah.
  11. Surma:That's amazing.
  12. Surma:And for a while, after some time, whenever I played League of Legends with Bluetooth headphones,
  13. Jake:Oh.
  14. Surma:it would pitch lower.
  15. Surma:This all the sound, both my friend over voice call,
  16. Surma:but also the League sound, like League of Legends game sounds, would be lower pitched.
  17. Jake:Oh. Now, it's... and it's obviously not just playing the sound slower, because that doesn't work in a live... you know, a live environment. So it's actually pitching it down. That's... that's interesting.
  18. Surma:Well, I was like, what? What is happening?
  19. Surma:If I plug in via wire, it's fine.
  20. Jake:Huh.
  21. Surma:It's... everything is normal.
  22. Surma:And I just... I couldn't figure it out.
  23. Surma:And I just made my peace with it.
  24. Surma:And yesterday I reopened the can of worms and figured out that you can actually see
  25. Jake:Yes!
  26. Surma:more about your audio device's details if you open macOS's audio MIDI settings.
  27. Surma:Like, it's nowhere in the sound settings, but in the MIDI settings,
  28. Surma:you can see how many channels, which codec, sampling rate, all that jazz.
  29. Jake:And you can create virtual audio devices and stuff, which I've... which I've done now.
  30. Surma:Yes, which is actually...
  31. Surma:Like, if you have multiple Bluetooth headphones,
  32. Surma:you can create a virtual device to output sound to all of them.
  33. Jake:Uh-huh.
  34. Surma:This is about what I discovered there more by accident,
  35. Jake:Yeah.
  36. Surma:is that these headphones that I have were, via Bluetooth,
  37. Surma:connected at 44.1 kilohertz sampling rate.
  38. Surma:Which is fine, but I actually would have thought they would go for 48,
  39. Jake:Uh-huh. Yeah.
  40. Surma:because, you know, they have a higher quality chip than that.
  41. Surma:And, you know, I started googling a bit, and there's some other headphones.
  42. Surma:And for some reason, for a while now, Mac has a 48 kilohertz disallow list.
  43. Surma:It just doesn't let you do 48 kilohertz, even if your headphones support them.
  44. Jake:Right.
  45. Surma:And I was like, I mean, I'm not that much of an audiophile, that's fine.
  46. Surma:But it turns out, at the same time, there is a new thing called the macOS Game Mode,
  47. Surma:which kind of forces your display into higher refresh rates.
  48. Jake:Uh-huh.
  49. Surma:When you go in a game in full screen, it kind of automatically activates.
  50. Surma:But because you're in full screen, I didn't know it existed,
  51. Surma:because your taskbar is one.
  52. Surma:If you tap out, you see it as an icon on the top.
  53. Surma:And I learned it also forces 48 kilohertz.
  54. Surma:Well, they describe it as it doubles your sampling rate,
  55. Surma:which I'm not sure is actually true.
  56. Jake:I could do some maths and figure out that that's not quite... quite double, but okay.
  57. Surma:But what I think is happening, and my tests seem to confirm that,
  58. Surma:is that, as far as League of Legends is concerned,
  59. Surma:the game thinks the system is running at 48 kilohertz.
  60. Surma:But my headphones, because they're on the 48 kilohertz disallow list,
  61. Surma:are still on 44 kilohertz.
  62. Surma:Now, if you do that math, you can kind of imagine
  63. Surma:how it might end up sounding lower pitched
  64. Jake:Right.
  65. Surma:if League is generating 48,000 samples per second,
  66. Surma:but they're played at 44,000 samples a second.
  67. Jake:And it's just dropping samples at some interval to cope with the live...
  68. Surma:Yep, there was a regular clicking sound when, I guess,
  69. Surma:when there was a buffer underrun or something.
  70. Jake:Oh!
  71. Surma:And so this, now I figured out, I had to tap out once,
  72. Surma:click that icon in the top, and say,
  73. Surma:disable game mode, and all my sounds are back to happy sounds.
  74. Jake:Oh, there you go.
  75. Jake:Welcome, everyone, to Off the Main Thread, the new audiophile podcast concerned mostly with Bluetooth and sample rates.
  76. Surma:This podcast is sponsored by diamond-coated USB cables.
  77. Jake:Oh, yeah. I just... yeah.
  78. Surma:So, Jake, what are we talking about today?
  79. Jake:Oh, yeah. Okay. On today's podcast, we're going to... we're going to talk about Apple and Safari and a new EU ruling and how, yes, a thing has happened.
  80. Surma:Oh, did something happen?
  81. Jake:And it's happening live. Like, I'm hoping by the time we get this podcast out, there won't be loads of change and it will still be relevant.
  82. Jake:But, yes, important and scary things are happening.
  83. Jake:We're going to talk through it.
  84. Jake:And then we'll see. We'll see what we've got time for after that.
  85. Jake:And we'll see what we've got time for.
  86. Surma:Yeah.
  87. Surma:Yeah.
  88. Jake:And we might record a new intro if we do have time.
  89. Jake:And we'll tease it.
  90. Jake:Okay. It's going to be a fun one for Lucas.
  91. Jake:Enjoy!
  92. Jake:What do you think? Are we diving straight into the content after that?
  93. Surma:I mean, I feel like it was hard to not be aware of the news that,
  94. Surma:you know, how Apple is changing the rules
  95. Surma:around the App Store and browsers and iOS and all that jazz.
  96. Surma:But at the same time, there was also a lot of information
  97. Jake:Okay. Well, in order to do that, I think we need to travel back through time.
  98. Surma:and misinformation and reaction videos.
  99. Surma:And I'm not a lawyer, 18 tweet summaries.
  100. Surma:So I think we might need the time.
  101. Surma:So I think we jump right in and try to get
  102. Surma:a canonical, authoritative summary from you.
  103. Jake:So, take my hand, Surma, as we journey back to 2013.
  104. Jake:All right. Here we are in 2013.
  105. Jake:You know it's really 2013 because if you listen very carefully, you can hear Get Lucky by Daft Punk playing on a loop on every radio station in the world.
  106. Surma:Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
  107. Jake:I mean, listeners of the podcast won't be able to hear that because of a series of licensing issues.
  108. Jake:But, Surma, you can hear it, right? Yeah? Okay.
  109. Jake:But that's not what we're here for.
  110. Jake:All right. Follow me. Follow me. Come here.
  111. Jake:Take a look through that window.
  112. Surma:Wait, is that Steve Ballmer?
  113. Jake:Yes. Yes, it is.
  114. Surma:Why is he so sweaty?
  115. Surma:And why does he look so sad?
  116. Jake:Well, he's sweaty because he usually is.
  117. Jake:But he's looking sad because the EU just fined Microsoft €561 million.
  118. Jake:And the reason for that, or at least the core of the reason, is that Internet Explorer is bundled with Windows.
  119. Jake:And the EU ruled,
  120. Jake:That was their quote.
  121. Jake:And that ruling was actually in 2009 following earlier investigations into the bundling of Windows Media Player with Windows.
  122. Jake:And it follows a similar case back in 2001 in the US, which was also about the bundling of Internet Explorer and threatened to split Microsoft up.
  123. Jake:Although that didn't happen.
  124. Jake:But this ruling actually has a clear user-facing impact.
  125. Jake:Now, I don't know if you remember this, but the agreement was that when you run Internet Explorer,
  126. Jake:you would be taken to a website, browserchoice.eu.
  127. Jake:This is a website built by Microsoft that essentially said,
  128. Jake:Hey, did you know that there are other browsers?
  129. Jake:There's other browsers, and here are some download links.
  130. Jake:And there'd be links for Internet Explorer, obviously.
  131. Jake:Firefox, Chrome, Opera, Safari, because Safari for Windows was a thing at the time.
  132. Jake:But you'd also get links to Avant Browser, Flock, Green Browser, Chameleon, Maxthon, Sleipnir, and Slim Browser.
  133. Surma:Is this one of those games where I have to figure out which browser is the fake one?
  134. Jake:These were all...
  135. Jake:I know, right? They were all real.
  136. Jake:Actually, I bring this fact up all the time because it amuses me.
  137. Jake:But I still think the best browser name ever created was the web browser for the Amiga operating system Workbench.
  138. Jake:That was called Eyebrows, as in Eyebrows.
  139. Jake:And that's the name Apple should have used.
  140. Jake:They should have taken that name. It's a much better name.
  141. Surma:So that side was an actual thing.
  142. Surma:I'm assuming it doesn't exist anymore.
  143. Jake:It doesn't. It was shut down.
  144. Jake:So the ruling that the EU made is they had to do this until 2014.
  145. Jake:And as soon as it wasn't needed anymore, the site disappeared.
  146. Jake:Well, the browsers were presented in random order, although in two sections.
  147. Surma:I would have expected them that all the buttons would just,
  148. Surma:like, move out of the way from your mouse cursor
  149. Surma:and just, like, underneath would be an Internet Explorer button.
  150. Jake:There was the popular ones at the top and then that kind of bag of ones you've never heard of afterwards.
  151. Surma:But I'm assuming it exists.
  152. Jake:So when companies are told to behave, they behave in the minimum way possible, right?
  153. Jake:Given the rules.
  154. Surma:Indeed.
  155. Jake:So that bit of code that would take you to that website,
  156. Jake:that bit of code would only be triggered if you haven't been taken to the browserchoice.eu screen before,
  157. Jake:which is fair enough. It's a one-time thing.
  158. Jake:You wouldn't be taken there if you had a different browser set as the default,
  159. Surma:Did they also check whether you are, in fact, in the EU?
  160. Jake:which, again, is fair enough.
  161. Jake:If you've got a different browser set as the default, you're aware of your browser choice.
  162. Jake:That code would only run if you were in the EU, right?
  163. Jake:This is it.
  164. Jake:Microsoft don't want to do this, but the EU have ruled it,
  165. Jake:so they're only going to run it in places where the EU has jurisdiction.
  166. Jake:Yes.
  167. Jake:So I guess they IP geofenced it.
  168. Surma:I was gonna wonder if your time zone is set to like, you know,
  169. Jake:I'm not actually sure what the mechanism was.
  170. Jake:It might have been down to the settings in the browser, maybe,
  171. Jake:if you'd indicated where you were in time zones and stuff.
  172. Jake:That's a good question.
  173. Surma:San Francisco, North America, they'd go like, nope, no browser choice for you.
  174. Jake:Yeah, I'm not sure what the mechanism was.
  175. Jake:But they also checked if you were running Windows XP or higher,
  176. Jake:and this was just kind of a deal that they didn't have to support ancient operating systems.
  177. Jake:Windows 7 was out at this point,
  178. Jake:so having this running in Windows XP was actually pretty good support.
  179. Jake:But that last rule was implemented using an allow list of operating system versions
  180. Jake:for where to trigger this.
  181. Jake:And what happened is Windows 7 Service Pack 1 came out,
  182. Jake:which is a new operating system version,
  183. Jake:and whoopsie, someone forgot to add it to the list.
  184. Jake:So that code just wasn't running for people using Microsoft's latest operating system.
  185. Surma:No, I'm not.
  186. Jake:And because adding a string to a list is the third hardest problem in computer science,
  187. Jake:this went unpatched for 14 months, right?
  188. Jake:And the EU were not best pleased about this,
  189. Jake:and so that is why they fined Microsoft €561 million.
  190. Surma:The fine was for that oversight, not for the the anti-competitive thing originally.
  191. Jake:Well, it sort of was, because the rule was there because of the anti-competitive thing,
  192. Surma:The fine was for that oversight, not for the anti-competitive thing originally.
  193. Jake:and Microsoft hadn't followed the rules.
  194. Jake:I mean, Microsoft said it was just down to this bug.
  195. Jake:But, you know...
  196. Jake:Yes.
  197. Surma:Yeah, I would be sad if I was Steve Ballmer.
  198. Jake:Exactly. Exactly.
  199. Jake:And that was in 2013.
  200. Jake:But further back...
  201. Jake:Yes, exactly. That's why...
  202. Jake:It's not why he's sweaty, but it is why he's sad.
  203. Jake:But that was back in 2013.
  204. Jake:And further back in 2007...
  205. Jake:Everyone was listening to Umbrella by Rihanna.
  206. Jake:But there was another Steve, a happier Steve, Steve Jobs,
  207. Jake:and he released the iPhone.
  208. Surma:Yeah, I would be sad if I was Steve Ballmer.
  209. Jake:Now, the iPhone had a bundled browser, Safari.
  210. Jake:There was no browser choice screen in the EU or anywhere else,
  211. Jake:and that's because there was no browser choice to be had.
  212. Jake:But there was actually no app choice to be had.
  213. Jake:Like, the iPhone released without apps, right?
  214. Jake:The only company who could make apps for the iPhone was Apple.
  215. Jake:It wasn't a restriction on browsers specifically.
  216. Jake:In fact...
  217. Surma:Which at the time was completely normal.
  218. Surma:Like, I mean, phones were like...
  219. Surma:This was kind of the first smartphone.
  220. Surma:Like, phones before that, you couldn't install stuff.
  221. Jake:Well, you could...
  222. Jake:Around this time, I had a Nokia Symbian device,
  223. Jake:and I had a Game Boy emulator running on it,
  224. Jake:and that's what I was playing on the train at the time.
  225. Jake:But, no, in this world, if you wanted to create an app,
  226. Jake:this is what Steve said up on stage,
  227. Jake:you would build a web app,
  228. Jake:and it would run in a fancy, fully-featured Safari browser.
  229. Surma:What a visionary.
  230. Jake:I thought it was great. I was really happy to hear that.
  231. Jake:But app developers were not happy,
  232. Jake:and Apple actually really quickly reversed on their decision
  233. Jake:in the same year,
  234. Jake:and in 2008, the following year,
  235. Jake:they released their SDK and App Store.
  236. Jake:Um...
  237. Surma:I mean, the vision is kinda great, but the web of 2007, which I have to admit,
  238. Surma:I do not know well at all, did not lend itself to building apps.
  239. Jake:Yeah, I mean, depending on the app,
  240. Jake:but, yes, we didn't have things like WASM, right?
  241. Jake:Like, we didn't have...
  242. Jake:I'm pretty sure we didn't have WebGL at the time
  243. Surma:No, I'm trying to remember when jQuery UI came out.
  244. Jake:running on an iPhone, for sure.
  245. Surma:Because it or if it was a layer on top of jQuery UI that gave you the iOS
  246. Jake:Yes.
  247. Jake:That's right.
  248. Jake:Yeah, I remember playing with that.
  249. Surma:skeuomorphic look and feel.
  250. Surma:That was a thing.
  251. Jake:So, yes, I think it's kind of fair
  252. Jake:that they opened up their SDK and all of that,
  253. Jake:and if you wanted to play in this world,
  254. Jake:and this is still, like, true today,
  255. Jake:you pay $100 a year to their developer program,
  256. Jake:but more profitably for Apple, certainly,
  257. Jake:they take 30% of revenue,
  258. Jake:and that's from the sales of the app itself,
  259. Jake:if you charge for it,
  260. Jake:but also of purchases and subscriptions
  261. Jake:made within the app.
  262. Jake:That's the deal you opt into.
  263. Jake:Apps can only be installed via the Apple App Store,
  264. Surma:Yeah, I'm trying to remember when jQuery UI came out.
  265. Jake:and they have final say
  266. Jake:of what can and can't exist in there.
  267. Jake:One rule in particular,
  268. Jake:the famous rule that web developers go on about a lot,
  269. Jake:the rule is apps that browse the web
  270. Jake:must use the appropriate WebKit framework
  271. Jake:and WebKit JavaScript,
  272. Jake:and that's the rule that outright bans
  273. Jake:other browser engines on iOS.
  274. Surma:Correct.
  275. Jake:Now, you can download other browsers
  276. Jake:from the App Store.
  277. Jake:You can download Chrome, you can download Firefox,
  278. Jake:but these are just wrappers around Safari.
  279. Jake:You're not using Chromium, and you're not using Gecko.
  280. Jake:And it's the engine where the web platform features
  281. Jake:are implemented.
  282. Surma:Right.
  283. Jake:So, yes.
  284. Surma:So you still get, as you know, Chrome on iOS, you still get access to syncing your profile
  285. Surma:and your safe passwords and all that stuff.
  286. Jake:Exactly.
  287. Surma:But the code that renders, turns your HTML and CSS into the image on screen, that is code
  288. Surma:by Apple that the authors of Chrome for iOS cannot change or augment or move forward if
  289. Surma:they needed to.
  290. Jake:Exactly.
  291. Jake:And that means Apple gets to set the limit
  292. Jake:of what the web is capable of on iOS.
  293. Jake:And that has been the state of things
  294. Jake:for over 15 years.
  295. Jake:And it's...
  296. Surma:And their justification for this, I assume...
  297. Jake:...
  298. Surma:I don't know if this is ever...
  299. Surma:If they have confirmed this, but I'm guessing that they're framing this as a protecting
  300. Surma:their users feature, as in they want to make sure that executing code from random places
  301. Surma:on the internet, which the web is kind of doing, does not compromise the user's data
  302. Surma:or privacy or stuff like that.
  303. Surma:I'm not sure if that's actually true, but I would suspect that would be their reasoning.
  304. Jake:Yeah, the reasoning is something, something, security, something.
  305. Surma:Right.
  306. Jake:But the more they say,
  307. Jake:well, you know, we've got to do it to protect users,
  308. Jake:the more it suggests that they're not protecting users
  309. Jake:on macOS, where you can install
  310. Jake:other browsers with other engines.
  311. Surma:Yeah.
  312. Jake:And, yeah, it blows my mind
  313. Jake:that Apple just kind of got away with this
  314. Jake:for 15 years.
  315. Jake:Because on Windows,
  316. Jake:and on macOS, but on Windows,
  317. Jake:users were free to install whatever browser
  318. Jake:they wanted with whatever engine,
  319. Jake:yet in 2013, Microsoft got
  320. Jake:a half-billion-euro smackdown
  321. Surma:Yeah.
  322. Jake:for merely failing to directly
  323. Jake:point out to users that they had this freedom.
  324. Jake:And I think it was right that they were fined.
  325. Jake:I think we both agree with that.
  326. Jake:But at the same time, Apple was outright preventing
  327. Surma:Yeah.
  328. Jake:other engines from existing on their platform.
  329. Surma:Yeah.
  330. Jake:Like, bleh.
  331. Jake:You know?
  332. Jake:And it seems like it's really, like,
  333. Jake:poorly understood that they're doing this.
  334. Jake:And I've whinged a lot about this
  335. Surma:Yeah.
  336. Jake:over the last 15 years.
  337. Jake:But even recently, when I tweet about it,
  338. Jake:I'll get replies, replies from people
  339. Jake:and a web developer in their bio
  340. Jake:saying things like,
  341. Jake:I got Chromium installed on my iPhone, you doofus.
  342. Jake:Just get it from the App Store.
  343. Jake:Even though in the tweet I'm explaining the difference
  344. Jake:between the two, it is confusing.
  345. Jake:I get it.
  346. Jake:It still surprises me after 15 years that many developers
  347. Surma:Yeah.
  348. Jake:don't realize that Apple has
  349. Jake:gotten away with banning competing
  350. Jake:browser engines on their platform.
  351. Surma:And the inconsistency here between macOS and iOS is something that has always confused
  352. Surma:me a bit because, for example, iOS phones and tablets are very locked down that, as
  353. Jake:Correct, yes.
  354. Jake:Mm-hmm.
  355. Surma:far as I know, you can't even, you know, sideload apps without being a part of the
  356. Surma:developer program, while on Android you can.
  357. Surma:And while, you know, I know many people are saying like, oh, that's just for piracy.
  358. Surma:I also think there are some other reasons why you want to maybe, I don't know, circumvent
  359. Surma:a government blocking your access to certain data resources or, I don't know.
  360. Jake:Apple's rules, as well.
  361. Jake:Apple's rules.
  362. Jake:Apple's rules, as well.
  363. Jake:Like, Apple's rules, you know?
  364. Jake:Like...
  365. Surma:Yeah, exactly.
  366. Surma:And I think we've really reached a point where the difference between desktop and mobile
  367. Surma:really isn't that important anymore.
  368. Jake:Hmm.
  369. Surma:And on macOS and the laptops, not only can you install pretty much whatever you like,
  370. Surma:you are even allowed to install a different operating system.
  371. Surma:Like, Apple allows it.
  372. Surma:It doesn't support it.
  373. Surma:Like, they're not giving you tools to do that easily, but it is very much not forbidden
  374. Jake:Hmm.
  375. Surma:by the user agreement that you agree to when you buy one of those laptops.
  376. Surma:And just the mobile operating system seems to be the polar opposite.
  377. Jake:Yeah. And even on Chrome OS,
  378. Jake:you can install, like, the Android
  379. Jake:and Linux versions of Firefox, right?
  380. Jake:Even on an operating system
  381. Jake:that's, by name,
  382. Jake:based around another browser,
  383. Jake:you can still install other browser engines.
  384. Jake:Yeah.
  385. Surma:Yeah.
  386. Jake:As far as I can tell,
  387. Jake:the way they've gotten away with this
  388. Jake:is because iOS doesn't have the same
  389. Surma:Yeah.
  390. Jake:kind of monopoly that Windows had.
  391. Jake:So...
  392. Jake:iOS has a global
  393. Jake:smartphone share that's less than 30%.
  394. Jake:It depends where you get your figures from.
  395. Jake:Some say it's 16%.
  396. Jake:And the rest of the share is Android.
  397. Jake:So Android's a much bigger player globally.
  398. Jake:In the US...
  399. Surma:It's funny how the reputation or the perception does not match that, at least in our tech
  400. Jake:Right.
  401. Jake:And I think there's a couple of reasons for this.
  402. Surma:bubble.
  403. Jake:In the US, iOS does have the majority share,
  404. Jake:but it's still just around 55%, 60%.
  405. Surma:Yeah.
  406. Jake:Certainly not the kind of numbers
  407. Jake:we'd use when talking about monopolies.
  408. Jake:But, like you say,
  409. Jake:it doesn't feel like it tells the whole story.
  410. Jake:And I think this is because iOS users
  411. Jake:have a lot of influence over web developers
  412. Jake:because they are rich.
  413. Jake:They skew rich, right?
  414. Jake:If you're working at a company,
  415. Jake:the CEO has an iPhone.
  416. Surma:Yeah.
  417. Jake:Especially if it's a Western company.
  418. Jake:And that makes it really hard
  419. Jake:to justify feature work that
  420. Jake:doesn't work on an iPhone.
  421. Jake:Unlike macOS and other operating systems
  422. Surma:Yeah.
  423. Jake:where the users can install
  424. Jake:a more capable browser,
  425. Jake:that just is not allowed on iOS.
  426. Jake:And as a developer,
  427. Jake:I found this particularly infuriating
  428. Jake:because, and we've covered this
  429. Jake:on previous episodes,
  430. Jake:we've talked a lot about cross-browsers
  431. Jake:in terms of features and bug fixes.
  432. Jake:Last week, I had a problem
  433. Jake:that could be solved by CSS subgrid.
  434. Jake:It's a newly cross-browser feature.
  435. Jake:I was really excited about using it.
  436. Jake:I used it. I got it working in Chrome.
  437. Jake:Checked it in Firefox. Looks great.
  438. Jake:Checked it in Safari. It's broken
  439. Surma:Yeah.
  440. Jake:due to a bug.
  441. Surma:Also, they have it, but it's not compliant or has a bug.
  442. Jake:A few weeks...
  443. Jake:It was a bug.
  444. Jake:That bug has been fixed now
  445. Jake:and is fixed in
  446. Jake:Safari TP,
  447. Jake:the technical preview.
  448. Surma:Right.
  449. Jake:What is a bug and what is non-compliant?
  450. Jake:I guess it comes down to intent.
  451. Jake:They weren't intending
  452. Jake:for it to be broken.
  453. Surma:Right.
  454. Surma:I mean, ignore my wording, but I was expecting to say Safari doesn't have subgrid, which
  455. Surma:I think Chrome actually also was lagging behind on subgrid specifically for a long time.
  456. Jake:Yeah, so I think
  457. Surma:But yeah.
  458. Jake:Chrome was last across the line for subgrid.
  459. Jake:But the implementation is...
  460. Jake:For me, it seemed better
  461. Jake:because this particular thing I wanted to do
  462. Jake:worked in Chrome and Firefox,
  463. Surma:Yeah.
  464. Jake:but not in Safari.
  465. Jake:There's probably bugs in Chrome for subgrid as well.
  466. Jake:It's not what I hit at the time.
  467. Jake:But even a few weeks before that, it was creating
  468. Jake:a custom text input element
  469. Jake:as a web component.
  470. Jake:Again, it was great in Chrome, great in Firefox,
  471. Surma:Yes.
  472. Jake:broken in Safari. Autocomplete just didn't work.
  473. Jake:If you're a web developer,
  474. Jake:this will be
  475. Jake:a familiar story to you.
  476. Jake:And it isn't just your imagination.
  477. Surma:Yes.
  478. Jake:Because if you go to the web platform test
  479. Jake:website, there's a dashboard there.
  480. Jake:And right at the top of the page, there's a view
  481. Jake:that shows the number of tests that only
  482. Jake:fail in one engine.
  483. Jake:And for Chrome, it's around 900.
  484. Jake:For Firefox, it's around
  485. Jake:1,700.
  486. Jake:And for Safari, it's over 3,700.
  487. Jake:Right?
  488. Surma:Yes.
  489. Jake:It's not just your imagination.
  490. Jake:This is backed up by facts.
  491. Surma:And at the same time, there was a campaign a year or two ago that Safari had the highest
  492. Jake:Was that interop?
  493. Jake:Was that web platform test?
  494. Surma:web platform test pass rate or something like that, wasn't there?
  495. Jake:I don't know.
  496. Surma:Ah, you might be right.
  497. Surma:I'm not sure I remember, but there was like definitely like a, you know, active PR being
  498. Surma:made that Safari is the most compliant browser in some sense.
  499. Jake:Maybe.
  500. Jake:And I think there's been a rocky
  501. Jake:sort of history of
  502. Jake:Safari not being properly
  503. Jake:tested
  504. Jake:on web platform tests.
  505. Jake:Safari is involved in the development
  506. Jake:of web platform tests, so
  507. Jake:in some ways, it was their problem to fix.
  508. Jake:I think the numbers were skewed for a while.
  509. Jake:To my knowledge, that 3,700
  510. Jake:is an up-to-date representative number.
  511. Jake:But, yeah.
  512. Jake:It certainly tallies with my experience.
  513. Surma:Yeah.
  514. Surma:It's an interesting stat I didn't know existed because tests that only fail at one browser
  515. Surma:really are the source of frustration, right?
  516. Surma:Like if just if there's like no browsers implemented a feature, that's not frustrating unless,
  517. Jake:Yeah.
  518. Surma:you know, it's this one capability you really want for your specific app.
  519. Surma:But that's really the case, I think, nowadays on average.
  520. Surma:But if something works in all the browsers, but just one browser doesn't quite do it right,
  521. Surma:especially if they have support for the feature but are not fully compliant and you hit that
  522. Surma:case, those are really the source of frustration that is as a stat, I think, quite interesting
  523. Jake:Yeah.
  524. Surma:to look at.
  525. Jake:And if, you know,
  526. Jake:we were talking about Windows users,
  527. Jake:you could drive them to install
  528. Jake:a better browser
  529. Jake:to get a more stable and featureful
  530. Jake:experience, which is what we did back in the
  531. Jake:day when IE was lagging behind.
  532. Jake:You know, we would actively encourage people
  533. Jake:to adopt Firefox or
  534. Jake:later Chrome. But you
  535. Jake:can't do that on iOS because Apple has simply
  536. Surma:Yeah.
  537. Jake:banned it from happening. And to use
  538. Jake:the words that the EU directed at Microsoft,
  539. Jake:it very much seems like this harms
  540. Jake:competition between web browsers,
  541. Jake:undermines product innovation,
  542. Jake:and ultimately reduces consumer choice.
  543. Jake:It just seems like the same thing to me.
  544. Jake:So,
  545. Jake:why does Safari, which,
  546. Jake:let's remember, is underpinned by one of the world's
  547. Jake:richest, most powerful companies,
  548. Jake:lag behind a
  549. Jake:financially struggling underdog
  550. Jake:like Firefox? You know, kind of like
  551. Jake:you alluded to there, this graph,
  552. Surma:Yeah.
  553. Jake:those figures we were talking about before,
  554. Jake:it's when one browser is failing and the other two aren't.
  555. Jake:And, you know, Firefox is one of those.
  556. Jake:We've talked in past episodes
  557. Jake:how they're struggling, but they are
  558. Jake:doing way better than Safari
  559. Jake:at that metric.
  560. Surma:It is so impressive how a browser that really sadly has fallen out of favor on average and
  561. Surma:clearly has much less resources to work with than Google or Apple manages to keep up with
  562. Jake:Mmm.
  563. Surma:new features from web platform standardization.
  564. Jake:Absolutely.
  565. Surma:Absolutely incredible.
  566. Jake:And I think we get
  567. Jake:some insight into the culture
  568. Jake:of this from an email sent by
  569. Jake:Philip Schiller, who's an
  570. Jake:Apple executive, and it's an email sent in
  571. Jake:2011 to Eddie Q
  572. Jake:and Steve Jobs, and this email
  573. Jake:is titled, HTML5
  574. Jake:poses threat to Flash
  575. Surma:Yeah.
  576. Jake:and the App Store.
  577. Jake:You know, the Flash reference dates it somewhat.
  578. Jake:But this email states
  579. Jake:that he expects a web-based
  580. Jake:solution to challenge
  581. Jake:their App Store's 30% revenue
  582. Jake:cut.
  583. Jake:And it's kind of there in black and white.
  584. Jake:You know what I mean?
  585. Jake:Mmm.
  586. Jake:I don't know.
  587. Jake:But things are changing.
  588. Jake:The Open Web Advocacy
  589. Jake:Group has been working with regulators
  590. Jake:around the world, showing them the ways that Apple
  591. Surma:Yeah.
  592. Jake:and other companies like Google
  593. Jake:are artificially holding the web back
  594. Jake:and holding them to account.
  595. Jake:But this Apple browser ban,
  596. Jake:as they call it, is one of their main focuses.
  597. Jake:It started off with
  598. Jake:a couple of Aussies, Alex and James
  599. Jake:Moore, and they've been able to bridge
  600. Jake:this gap between the worlds of web development
  601. Jake:and regulation and
  602. Jake:legislation. But the group has
  603. Jake:grown, and there's familiar
  604. Jake:names on there, like Bruce Lawson, Stuart Langridge,
  605. Jake:Francis Berryman.
  606. Jake:You'll see them writing articles on the blog, doing huge amounts
  607. Surma:Yeah.
  608. Jake:of work. Their Walled Gardens
  609. Jake:report, which concerns this
  610. Jake:whole sort of Apple browser ban,
  611. Jake:is an absolutely great read. It's long,
  612. Jake:but wow, there's so much
  613. Jake:data in there. A lot of the content
  614. Jake:that I've been talking about in this section
  615. Jake:has kind of been from that report.
  616. Jake:It's just a great source of data.
  617. Jake:Links in the description,
  618. Jake:of course.
  619. Surma:Yeah, we'll link to it for sure.
  620. Jake:The good news is
  621. Jake:the regulators are starting to take
  622. Jake:note, and there's
  623. Jake:one in particular that I want to talk about,
  624. Surma:Yeah.
  625. Jake:and it's the EU again.
  626. Jake:The EU Digital Markets Act
  627. Jake:passed into law late
  628. Jake:2022, and
  629. Jake:part of that declares that gatekeepers
  630. Jake:must
  631. Jake:not prevent the installation of competing
  632. Jake:browser engines, and there must
  633. Jake:be a level playing field.
  634. Jake:The gatekeepers they name are Apple,
  635. Jake:Google, Microsoft, Amazon,
  636. Jake:Meta, and ByteDance, who own
  637. Jake:TikTok.
  638. Jake:So, in a nutshell, Apple can't block
  639. Jake:the installation of other browser engines,
  640. Surma:Yeah.
  641. Jake:and Safari mustn't be given
  642. Jake:exclusive access to
  643. Jake:particular APIs that make it perform better
  644. Jake:than other browser engines.
  645. Jake:And you'd hope
  646. Jake:after getting away with it for 15 years,
  647. Jake:Apple might be a bit, ah, okay, fair enough.
  648. Jake:That was a pretty good run for something
  649. Jake:that was very clearly unfair.
  650. Jake:But no, they are fighting for their
  651. Jake:ability to impose a browser monopoly
  652. Jake:on iOS. This one's
  653. Jake:brilliant. They tried to claim
  654. Jake:that they don't have the user numbers
  655. Jake:for regulation to apply,
  656. Surma:Yeah.
  657. Jake:and the claim they're making
  658. Jake:for this is that, well, there isn't one
  659. Jake:Safari you see. There are, in fact,
  660. Jake:three totally distinct
  661. Jake:browsers that carry the same name.
  662. Jake:Safari on iOS,
  663. Jake:Safari on iPadOS, and
  664. Jake:Safari on macOS.
  665. Jake:These are entirely different,
  666. Jake:so we can't count them as any way
  667. Jake:the same. And the EU just kind of went,
  668. Jake:eh, nice try, but
  669. Jake:no. And it probably didn't
  670. Jake:help that the main product page
  671. Jake:for Safari, and you can see this today
  672. Surma:Yeah.
  673. Jake:if you go to apple.com slash Safari,
  674. Jake:it has something to say on the matter.
  675. Jake:When it comes to Safari on iOS,
  676. Jake:Safari on iPadOS, and Safari
  677. Jake:on macOS, Apple says in
  678. Jake:large, bold heading text,
  679. Jake:same Safari, different device.
  680. Jake:So...
  681. Jake:Isn't that beautiful?
  682. Jake:I love...
  683. Surma:Amazing.
  684. Jake:So I think the EU maybe found that more compelling,
  685. Jake:you know? Like, it's Apple's own
  686. Jake:words.
  687. Jake:But yeah, like we saw with Microsoft,
  688. Jake:companies do not like being
  689. Jake:told to be fair, and they will
  690. Surma:Yeah.
  691. Jake:do very silly things to try and avoid
  692. Jake:it.
  693. Jake:This act passed into law
  694. Jake:late 2022, but the deadline for compliance
  695. Jake:is March the 6th, so
  696. Jake:soon.
  697. Surma:Hence, why now all the changes are being rolled out.
  698. Jake:Exactly. That's why
  699. Jake:it sort of, you know, there was a bit of noise
  700. Jake:about it in 2022, but you're
  701. Jake:hearing more noise about it now, because we're seeing
  702. Jake:the actual results of it.
  703. Jake:So Apple have got a set of
  704. Jake:rules, requirements
  705. Surma:Yeah.
  706. Surma:Yeah.
  707. Jake:for alternate browser engines on their platform.
  708. Surma:Yeah.
  709. Surma:Yeah.
  710. Surma:Yeah.
  711. Surma:Yeah.
  712. Jake:They say you can only do it in the EU.
  713. Surma:Yeah.
  714. Jake:Like, you know, same as
  715. Jake:Microsoft did. Totally
  716. Jake:as expected. They say
  717. Jake:the browser has to stay up-to-date security-wise.
  718. Jake:Okay. There are odd specifics,
  719. Jake:like the browser must
  720. Jake:pass at least 90% of web platform
  721. Jake:tests. Maybe this is just so
  722. Jake:they can kick
  723. Jake:things out of the App Store if they
  724. Jake:become, like, if they stop being updated.
  725. Jake:If they...
  726. Surma:I guess that could be actually a decent spirit of the rule behind that.
  727. Surma:I'm wondering, does the Safari meet this path?
  728. Jake:Yeah.
  729. Jake:It does. It does.
  730. Jake:But, yeah, I had to check
  731. Jake:the same thing as well.
  732. Jake:And, yeah, it does
  733. Jake:sound okay, these rules, but I am a little suspicious of
  734. Jake:them, given the other things that are
  735. Surma:Yeah.
  736. Jake:happening. But time
  737. Jake:Well, it does feel like progress.
  738. Jake:It does mean that Apple will no longer be able to limit
  739. Jake:what the web is capable of on iOS,
  740. Jake:which is, like, the key thing.
  741. Jake:But
  742. Jake:at the beginning of February,
  743. Surma:Yeah.
  744. Jake:this month, at time of recording,
  745. Jake:developers started noticing
  746. Jake:something wasn't quite right
  747. Jake:in the new iOS 7.4
  748. Jake:beta. Sites
  749. Jake:that were installed to the home screen,
  750. Jake:you know, like PWAs, they stopped
  751. Jake:opening as apps and started opening
  752. Jake:as a default browser, you know, like Safari.
  753. Surma:Yeah.
  754. Jake:So they essentially were turned back
  755. Jake:into shortcuts.
  756. Jake:And when I
  757. Jake:first saw this, I thought it was a bug.
  758. Jake:Because I've had this happen to me
  759. Jake:on Android, when
  760. Surma:Yeah.
  761. Jake:upgrading Android or transferring
  762. Jake:apps to a new phone. Like, I used to dog
  763. Jake:food the new phones and OS
  764. Jake:at Google, and this was a bug that
  765. Jake:I had filed over and over again.
  766. Jake:It kept regressing.
  767. Jake:Google definitely felt like it,
  768. Jake:as part of that process, treated web apps
  769. Jake:as second class.
  770. Jake:So I thought Apple was just sort of
  771. Jake:doing the same thing.
  772. Jake:But it's not a bug.
  773. Jake:This is deliberate. And they
  774. Jake:confirmed it on February the 16th.
  775. Jake:They said, like,
  776. Surma:Yeah.
  777. Jake:installing apps to the home screen where they
  778. Jake:open as apps is, like, it's just going to
  779. Jake:not be allowed in the EU on iOS.
  780. Jake:So not just in other browsers,
  781. Jake:like, it's being banned in Safari
  782. Jake:as well. And we should
  783. Jake:be clear what the impact of this is, because
  784. Jake:some Safari features are limited
  785. Jake:to installed PWAs, such as push messages.
  786. Jake:So we can't
  787. Surma:Oh, really?
  788. Jake:Right. And we all celebrated
  789. Jake:when Safari eventually got
  790. Jake:support for push messages, like, on iOS.
  791. Jake:But that feature is now
  792. Jake:being revoked in the EU
  793. Jake:as an effect
  794. Surma:Yeah.
  795. Jake:of this.
  796. Surma:So these changes are only, you're only affected by them if you are an iPhone user in the EU,
  797. Jake:Yes.
  798. Jake:No.
  799. Surma:like American iPhones basically are not affected by this.
  800. Surma:But also American, I'm just picking American as an example, just to make that clear.
  801. Surma:Yeah.
  802. Surma:In America, you also don't get the browser choice.
  803. Jake:Exactly.
  804. Jake:Yeah. It's kind of
  805. Jake:minimal compliance, but also
  806. Surma:Yeah.
  807. Jake:malicious compliance, I think.
  808. Jake:Because also, like, when you install
  809. Jake:a PWA in Safari, it actually sets up
  810. Jake:a new storage bucket for that PWA.
  811. Jake:Like, distinct from Safari.
  812. Jake:So
  813. Surma:Right.
  814. Jake:your web app's turning into
  815. Surma:Yeah.
  816. Jake:links to Safari
  817. Jake:is going to a different storage bucket.
  818. Jake:Like, if the user has local data,
  819. Jake:they've lost it. Like, just by updating their OS.
  820. Surma:Do you have a choice as a EU user to like, you just, you just screw you.
  821. Jake:No.
  822. Jake:Yeah.
  823. Surma:Okay, cool.
  824. Jake:Yeah. That's the deal.
  825. Surma:I don't think they're mandated to remove support for home screen PWAs.
  826. Jake:Yeah. Now, and
  827. Jake:Apple are claiming this is to comply with the regulation.
  828. Jake:Right. So the
  829. Jake:regulation requires that they provide a level
  830. Surma:Yup.
  831. Jake:playing field, which would mean that
  832. Jake:other browser engines would be able to
  833. Jake:install web apps to the home screen as well.
  834. Jake:Which we see is
  835. Jake:possible in Android, right? So
  836. Jake:it is possible. But Apple just didn't want to
  837. Jake:allow that, so they took the ability
  838. Jake:away from themselves as well.
  839. Surma:Yeah.
  840. Jake:This is like when the bratty kid loses a game
  841. Surma:Yeah.
  842. Jake:and they react by declaring that the ball
  843. Jake:is theirs, and they take it away so no
  844. Jake:one can play. You know?
  845. Jake:It's proper malicious compliance.
  846. Surma:Yeah.
  847. Jake:Yeah, they're saying it's a security risk because
  848. Jake:other browsers don't isolate PWA storage
  849. Surma:Yeah.
  850. Jake:the way they do. And I
  851. Jake:think the way they isolate storage has pros and cons.
  852. Surma:Yeah.
  853. Jake:But I think it's a stretch to
  854. Jake:call the other model a security risk.
  855. Surma:Yeah.
  856. Jake:They say it will allow other websites to gain access
  857. Jake:to the camera, which is a real
  858. Jake:scaremongering nonsense
  859. Jake:stretch of what actually happens.
  860. Surma:Oh, yeah.
  861. Surma:I mean, that really would say more about the iOS sandboxing than the other browser.
  862. Jake:Yeah, the only way
  863. Jake:I can make that make sense in my head
  864. Jake:is that
  865. Jake:if you granted
  866. Jake:access to google.com
  867. Jake:meet, then the Google
  868. Jake:Maps PWA would have access to the
  869. Jake:true, and I kind of think
  870. Jake:I do have bad feelings
  871. Jake:about that, but I think the way
  872. Jake:they've worded it makes it sound
  873. Jake:much bigger than it is.
  874. Jake:And I do think a large part of the tech press
  875. Jake:have just sort of taken their word
  876. Jake:for it as well.
  877. Jake:Tim Sweeney, who is the CEO of Epic Games,
  878. Jake:he put it like this.
  879. Jake:I suspect Apple's real reason for killing
  880. Jake:PWAs is the realisation
  881. Jake:that competing web browsers could do
  882. Jake:a vastly better job of supporting
  883. Jake:PWAs, unlike Safari's
  884. Jake:intentionally crippled web functionality,
  885. Jake:and turn PWAs into
  886. Jake:legit, untaxed competitors
  887. Jake:to native apps. And Tim's got
  888. Surma:Yeah.
  889. Jake:skin in the game, right? But
  890. Jake:another way to say all of that
  891. Jake:and a shorter way to say
  892. Jake:all of that was said
  893. Jake:in an email within Apple back in
  894. Jake:2011. Web-based solutions could challenge
  895. Jake:their app store's 30% revenue
  896. Jake:cut.
  897. Jake:You know,
  898. Jake:it's not good.
  899. Surma:And this is just, in a way, what you've been talking about, the very specific subtopic of
  900. Surma:other browsers on iOS, because in parallel with, in accordance with the same changes mandated by
  901. Surma:the EU, there was this whole changes on that 30% cut if you are opting into alternative app stores,
  902. Surma:which are now also allowed, which again, I do not know the exact numbers, but that was a similar
  903. Jake:Yes.
  904. Jake:Yeah.
  905. Surma:thing happening where even free apps would have to pay. And I don't think I am exaggerating people
  906. Jake:Mm-hm.
  907. Surma:saying like millions of dollars per year as a free app, because quote unquote, system fees,
  908. Surma:I think, which is, you know, like, if it kind of lines up with the quote from the email that
  909. Surma:they're really worried about a source of income here. And so they're trying really hard to
  910. Surma:disincentivize going down this route, or if you do, replace that income somehow. This is obviously,
  911. Jake:Yes.
  912. Surma:you know, me speaking for without actually having read up on all of this in detail, but it seems to
  913. Jake:Yes.
  914. Surma:track.
  915. Jake:Apple, on the app store thing,
  916. Jake:Apple are trying to charge a
  917. Jake:corkage fee, you know?
  918. Jake:Like I say,
  919. Jake:it's malicious compliance.
  920. Jake:Now, I want to stress this.
  921. Jake:I'm not saying that the WebKit
  922. Jake:team is anti-web.
  923. Jake:Some folks on that team have told me
  924. Jake:that the web shouldn't be for apps, that the browser
  925. Jake:should be a document viewer.
  926. Jake:But others, particularly some of their more
  927. Jake:recent hires, have worked hard on
  928. Jake:the features that make the web as powerful
  929. Jake:an application platform as it is today.
  930. Surma:Yeah, if I've learned one thing from our time at Google is that these companies are not a
  931. Surma:homogenous blob of opinions. There's usually people in all kinds of camps and different
  932. Surma:matters and different opinions. So Apple overall seems to have a culture where
  933. Jake:Mm.
  934. Surma:voicing differing opinions may not be as acceptable or as encouraged so that when you
  935. Surma:join the Safari engineering team, for example, and you are a known defender of the open web,
  936. Surma:you start being less outspoken on these topics is things I have seen happening. I don't think
  937. Surma:they have actually changed their opinion, these people, but they may just be strongly incentivized
  938. Jake:Absolutely.
  939. Jake:Yeah.
  940. Jake:Yes.
  941. Surma:to not be as vocal about it anymore. So I think there are genuinely good people on the Safari
  942. Jake:Agreed.
  943. Jake:And we have spoken in recent episodes
  944. Jake:about how much that team has changed over the
  945. Surma:and WebKit engineering team who believe in the open web and want to make it happen.
  946. Jake:past 10 years for the better.
  947. Jake:And we've also spoken about,
  948. Jake:well, similarly, with Google
  949. Surma:But within that team are just not necessarily given the freedom to pursue that.
  950. Jake:and Apple, about how much
  951. Jake:the team has changed over the past 10 years
  952. Jake:for the better.
  953. Jake:And we've also spoken about,
  954. Jake:well, similarly, with Google
  955. Jake:and Apple, about how much
  956. Jake:the team has changed over the past 10 years
  957. Jake:for the better.
  958. Surma:Yes.
  959. Jake:And we've also spoken about,
  960. Jake:well, similarly, with Google,
  961. Jake:how our experience there is,
  962. Surma:Yes.
  963. Jake:you know, you were dealing with
  964. Jake:Chrome employees versus web employees
  965. Jake:versus Google employees, and you had to be
  966. Jake:kind of aware of the kind of person
  967. Jake:you were talking to or what mode they were in
  968. Jake:at any given time and make sure
  969. Jake:that, you know, hold them to account
  970. Jake:that they were doing the right thing for the web
  971. Jake:I think Apple is anti-web.
  972. Jake:I think the actions that we've seen
  973. Jake:here are very clearly anti-web.
  974. Surma:The mandate they're getting from the top is anti-web.
  975. Jake:Yeah, absolutely. And that's why
  976. Jake:regulation like this is so important.
  977. Surma:So I think that's a really good point.
  978. Jake:We can't have an anti-web company
  979. Surma:Yes.
  980. Jake:in control of the web experience on a device
  981. Surma:Yes.
  982. Jake:as popular and as
  983. Surma:Yes.
  984. Jake:influential as the iPhone.
  985. Surma:Yes.
  986. Jake:Yeah, so I guess
  987. Surma:Yes.
  988. Jake:my call to action is to go to
  989. Surma:Yes.
  990. Jake:open-web-advocacy.org
  991. Surma:Yes.
  992. Jake:link in the description, of course.
  993. Surma:Yes.
  994. Jake:Their blog is really, really good.
  995. Surma:Yes.
  996. Jake:Read their reports
  997. Surma:Yes.
  998. Jake:because the amount of work they're doing
  999. Surma:Yes.
  1000. Jake:for such a small group is incredible.
  1001. Surma:Yes.
  1002. Jake:Get involved if you can.
  1003. Surma:Yes.
  1004. Jake:They have info on who to send emails to,
  1005. Surma:Yes.
  1006. Jake:who to send letters to, which petitions
  1007. Surma:Yes.
  1008. Jake:to sign, all of that kind of stuff
  1009. Surma:Yes.
  1010. Jake:to try and stop Apple from
  1011. Surma:Yes.
  1012. Jake:getting away with this, really.
  1013. Surma:Yes.
  1014. Jake:And although they've been focusing on the Apple browser ban,
  1015. Surma:Yes.
  1016. Jake:which I guess is now the Apple PWA ban,
  1017. Surma:Yes.
  1018. Jake:they're not going to stop there.
  1019. Surma:Yes.
  1020. Jake:I know they've got plans to tackle
  1021. Surma:Yes.
  1022. Jake:other companies,
  1023. Surma:Yes.
  1024. Jake:things they're doing which are anti-web,
  1025. Surma:Yes.
  1026. Jake:such as Google and Meta.
  1027. Surma:Yes.
  1028. Jake:So, yeah, important to follow them,
  1029. Surma:Yes.
  1030. Jake:check out what they're doing. And I guess
  1031. Surma:Yes.
  1032. Jake:apart from sending letters and emails,
  1033. Surma:Yes.
  1034. Jake:we just have to
  1035. Surma:Yes.
  1036. Jake:cross our fingers that
  1037. Surma:Yes.
  1038. Jake:either the PWA ban,
  1039. Surma:Yes.
  1040. Jake:the web app ban, doesn't go ahead or
  1041. Surma:Yes.
  1042. Jake:it gets revoked pretty quickly.
  1043. Surma:Yes.
  1044. Jake:That's where we are.
  1045. Surma:Yes.
  1046. Surma:Yes.
  1047. Surma:Yes.
  1048. Jake:Yeah, that's a good question.
  1049. Surma:Yes.
  1050. Jake:I mean, it's...
  1051. Surma:Yes.
  1052. Jake:Like we saw with Microsoft,
  1053. Surma:Yes.
  1054. Jake:what Microsoft did was a clear violation
  1055. Surma:Yes.
  1056. Jake:of the rules that were set out to them
  1057. Surma:Yes.
  1058. Jake:and that's why they got the fine.
  1059. Surma:Yes.
  1060. Jake:Microsoft claimed it to be accidental,
  1061. Surma:Yes.
  1062. Jake:but that, you know,
  1063. Surma:Yes.
  1064. Jake:was it?
  1065. Surma:Yes.
  1066. Jake:But it didn't change the fact
  1067. Surma:Yes.
  1068. Jake:that they were definitely not complying
  1069. Surma:Yes.
  1070. Jake:with the rules.
  1071. Surma:Yes.
  1072. Jake:So, yeah, I think
  1073. Surma:Yes.
  1074. Jake:that's a good question.
  1075. Surma:Yes.
  1076. Jake:With the rules.
  1077. Surma:Yes.
  1078. Jake:Apple...
  1079. Surma:Yes.
  1080. Jake:What they're doing with PWAs here
  1081. Surma:Yes.
  1082. Jake:seems to have more legs than their
  1083. Surma:Yes.
  1084. Jake:claim that Safari is actually three
  1085. Surma:Yes.
  1086. Jake:completely different browsers, you know?
  1087. Jake:Just have the
  1088. Surma:. . .
  1089. Jake:same icon and the same rendering engine.
  1090. Surma:Yes.
  1091. Jake:Like I say,
  1092. Surma:Yes.
  1093. Jake:it's malicious compliance. They've taken features
  1094. Surma:Yes.
  1095. Jake:away from themselves to avoid
  1096. Surma:Yes.
  1097. Jake:giving it to... to sharing it with
  1098. Surma:Yes.
  1099. Jake:others.
  1100. Surma:Yes.
  1101. Jake:I think they're...
  1102. Surma:Yes.
  1103. Jake:I think they're going to get away with it for a bit.
  1104. Surma:Yes.
  1105. Jake:And it's not... I don't know. It's not the first time that we've seen
  1106. Surma:Yes.
  1107. Jake:like companies
  1108. Surma:Yes.
  1109. Jake:behave quite badly in response to an EU
  1110. Surma:Yes.
  1111. Jake:ruling and it just kind of carry on.
  1112. Surma:Yes.
  1113. Jake:Like the cookie-banner stuff, right?
  1114. Surma:Yes.
  1115. Jake:It's still a blight on the web
  1116. Surma:Yes.
  1117. Jake:that should have been solved
  1118. Surma:Yes.
  1119. Jake:in a way better way and it, you know,
  1120. Surma:Yes.
  1121. Jake:I think it pushes people away
  1122. Surma:Yes.
  1123. Jake:from the web as a result onto
  1124. Surma:Yes.
  1125. Jake:platforms which have less
  1126. Surma:Yes.
  1127. Jake:privacy, but yeah.
  1128. Surma:Yes.
  1129. Jake:I don't know. I'm pessimist
  1130. Surma:Yes.
  1131. Jake:always. I think they're going to get away with this.
  1132. Surma:Yes.
  1133. Jake:And, you know,
  1134. Surma:Yes.
  1135. Jake:but we can write as many letters as we want
  1136. Surma:Yes.
  1137. Jake:and hopefully try and change it. I don't think
  1138. Surma:Yes.
  1139. Jake:it will be changed for the deadline,
  1140. Surma:Yes.
  1141. Jake:but,
  1142. Surma:Yes.
  1143. Jake:you know, hopefully we can get it overturned
  1144. Surma:Yes.
  1145. Jake:as quickly as possible.
  1146. Surma:I have a lot of faith in the Open Web Advocacy Group.
  1147. Surma:They have proven they can get stuff done, as you said,
  1148. Surma:with a surprisingly small amount of people
  1149. Surma:doing the actual legwork.
  1150. Surma:So, yeah, it may not. I think I agree.
  1151. Jake:...
  1152. Surma:I don't think things will change for the
  1153. Surma:original deadline but
  1154. Surma:I also think the EU will definitely not just
  1155. Surma:accept this, I think. I would be surprised
  1156. Surma:if they didn't change the spirit of what they were trying to do
  1157. Surma:and, like, protect customer choice and
  1158. Surma:customer capabilities. Just like they did pass that, you know,
  1159. Surma:iPhones in the EU have to be chargeable
  1160. Surma:with a USB-C standardized charger.
  1161. Jake:...
  1162. Surma:They're similarly trying to
  1163. Jake:...
  1164. Surma:take a stance on if you have a device,
  1165. Surma:if you buy a device, you own the device and that comes with certain rights
  1166. Surma:and if the company doesn't give you those rights, like installing apps,
  1167. Surma:that needs to be fixed and what Apple is doing
  1168. Surma:does not seem to actually give
  1169. Surma:users, customers, those
  1170. Surma:abilities in a way that is actually feasible.
  1171. Surma:So I would hope that, just from a pure customer perspective,
  1172. Surma:these changes are not
  1173. Surma:acceptable to the EU. I mean, obviously, you know, I'm saying this if I
  1174. Jake:...
  1175. Jake:...
  1176. Surma:have a deep understanding of how this works politically
  1177. Jake:...
  1178. Surma:but that's my hope.
  1179. Jake:...
  1180. Jake:I think I maybe tweeted this probably 10-15 years ago.
  1181. Jake:It surprises me how
  1182. Surma:Thank you.
  1183. Jake:like when Microsoft behaves badly
  1184. Jake:like people go for
  1185. Jake:Microsoft, right? Like they will
  1186. Jake:hold them to account.
  1187. Jake:Whereas
  1188. Jake:like when Apple does the same thing,
  1189. Jake:it's kind of like,
  1190. Jake:cute kitten scratching me.
  1191. Jake:You know what I mean? It's like you're still bleeding.
  1192. Jake:There has been a bit of anger
  1193. Jake:in web developer circles
  1194. Jake:like on Twitter and whatever about this.
  1195. Jake:But yeah, the tech press
  1196. Surma:Because, you know, we know that everybody listens to this
  1197. Jake:has been sort of largely just like,
  1198. Jake:oh, there they go. That's that done.
  1199. Surma:and the world will be changed.
  1200. Jake:So,
  1201. Surma:Thank you.
  1202. Jake:yeah, we'll see what happens.
  1203. Jake:Just,
  1204. Surma:Thank you.
  1205. Jake:I worry that it's going to sort of slip under
  1206. Surma:Thank you.
  1207. Jake:the radar in the same way that, you know,
  1208. Jake:Browserband in general seems to have,
  1209. Surma:Thank you.
  1210. Jake:like people just don't realize it's happening.
  1211. Surma:Thank you.
  1212. Jake:Hence this episode.
  1213. Surma:Thank you.
  1214. Surma:Thank you.
  1215. Jake:Look, me and you, and our editor
  1216. Surma:Thank you.
  1217. Jake:listens to this, and that's good enough for me.
  1218. Surma:That's more than enough.
  1219. Jake:Yeah?
  1220. Jake:Well, yeah. Right. Fine.
  1221. Surma:Thank you.
  1222. Jake:That's my rant over.
  1223. Surma:Thank you.
  1224. Surma:Strong, 50 minutes, I like it.
  1225. Jake:Is there anything else you want to just cram
  1226. Surma:Thank you.
  1227. Jake:into this episode?
  1228. Surma:Yeah, I'm thinking, but I...
  1229. Jake:I mean, we don't have to wait
  1230. Surma:Thank you.
  1231. Jake:a month until our next episode if we want it, right?
  1232. Jake:We could...
  1233. Surma:That's true. I mean, I guess we have because Lucas is on vacation.
  1234. Jake:Oh, that's true.
  1235. Surma:But we could have it ready recorded when he gets back.
  1236. Jake:Ready and...
  1237. Surma:So straight back into work for him.
  1238. Jake:Exactly. Exactly.
  1239. Surma:No rest for the week. Now, why don't we make this like...
  1240. Surma:Also, I think if we have an episode that is just about
  1241. Surma:Apple and browsers, that just makes it...
  1242. Jake:Nice little...
  1243. Surma:makes the topic even more important.
  1244. Jake:Neat little package. Well, let's do that.
  1245. Surma:Special, hot off the presses, breaking
  1246. Jake:Let's do that then.
  1247. Surma:news episode.
  1248. Jake:Well, that was...
  1249. Jake:Yeah, this recording has
  1250. Jake:gone better than other things that I've been
  1251. Jake:doing recently, because I tried to do some
  1252. Jake:plumbing recently.
  1253. Surma:Oh, that...
  1254. Jake:And...
  1255. Surma:We are software engineers.
  1256. Jake:I know.
  1257. Jake:I know.
  1258. Jake:The boiler in this...
  1259. Jake:Because we moved house in December. I mentioned it before.
  1260. Jake:The boiler keeps turning itself on
  1261. Jake:for no reason for just, like, a couple
  1262. Jake:of minutes, and then turning itself off again.
  1263. Jake:I hear it during the night,
  1264. Jake:and then trying to solve the problem in my head
  1265. Jake:that's been keeping me awake, I was getting up
  1266. Jake:at, like, three in the morning and going staring at the boiler
  1267. Jake:in the garage, just like, what do you want?
  1268. Jake:I don't know, right? What is wrong with you?
  1269. Surma:Isn't it supposed to do that?
  1270. Surma:Keep the water at temperature?
  1271. Jake:No. No.
  1272. Jake:It turns on when the boiler needs heated, or when
  1273. Jake:the heating needs heating. And neither of those
  1274. Jake:things were happening.
  1275. Jake:So I... Yeah.
  1276. Jake:The only thing I could identify on the front of the boiler is that
  1277. Jake:the pressure was a little
  1278. Jake:high. Like, it was still in the green, but it wasn't
  1279. Jake:in the happy, happy green.
  1280. Jake:So I
  1281. Surma:Is that a CSS color?
  1282. Jake:tried...
  1283. Surma:I really want to land happy, happy green.
  1284. Jake:Well, it was the same green, but it was
  1285. Jake:a different border width.
  1286. Surma:I feel like I'll be...
  1287. Jake:So it was a two-pixel
  1288. Jake:border width rather than a five-pixel border width,
  1289. Jake:if we're talking in CSS.
  1290. Jake:So I
  1291. Jake:couldn't figure out how to release
  1292. Jake:pressure from the boiler.
  1293. Jake:I watched loads of YouTube
  1294. Jake:videos, and everyone had a convenient little
  1295. Jake:tap that they turned, like
  1296. Jake:labeled pressure release, and I didn't
  1297. Jake:have one of those. So I
  1298. Surma:Is it called bleeding a radiator?
  1299. Jake:thought, well, I know how to bleed
  1300. Surma:Yeah, but that's fucking morbid.
  1301. Jake:a radiator, so I'll do that.
  1302. Surma:Jesus Christ, Brits.
  1303. Jake:Yeah, well, you turn the little key at the top to let the air
  1304. Surma:I think...
  1305. Jake:out, right? Yeah.
  1306. Surma:I'm trying to remember, but I think you just drain it.
  1307. Jake:I know, right? Yeah, I suppose.
  1308. Surma:I think...
  1309. Jake:What's the translation from the German?
  1310. Surma:I'm trying to remember, but I think you just drain it.
  1311. Surma:I think...
  1312. Jake:Oh, yeah, that is better.
  1313. Surma:I'm trying to remember, but I think you just drain it.
  1314. Jake:Yeah. Oh, well. Anyway, so I was
  1315. Jake:bludgeoning a radiator down in
  1316. Surma:...
  1317. Jake:the dining room.
  1318. Jake:And it's just, you know, so it's just turning the thing,
  1319. Jake:and my other half, Jen, she was in
  1320. Jake:the garage. I had her watching
  1321. Jake:the dial, and I was like, you know,
  1322. Jake:and, like, water was coming
  1323. Jake:out.
  1324. Surma:Tell me when it's in the happy, happy green zone.
  1325. Jake:Yeah, basically.
  1326. Jake:And I was like, is the needle moving?
  1327. Jake:She's like, no. And I'm like, okay.
  1328. Jake:So I loosened it a bit more.
  1329. Jake:And I was like, okay, is the dial moving?
  1330. Jake:And she's like, no. I was like, okay.
  1331. Jake:So I loosened it a bit more, and the thing popped out,
  1332. Jake:and I emptied the whole heating system
  1333. Surma:...
  1334. Jake:onto the dining room floor.
  1335. Surma:Also, that water is
  1336. Surma:the same water that's been in there for a while,
  1337. Jake:Oh, yeah.
  1338. Surma:isn't it? Did it smell good?
  1339. Jake:It smelled of metal, and I
  1340. Surma:...
  1341. Jake:smelled of metal, and the wall
  1342. Surma:...
  1343. Jake:smelled of metal, because, like,
  1344. Jake:it's coming out at high pressure,
  1345. Surma:...
  1346. Jake:and my instant reaction is put thing back
  1347. Surma:...
  1348. Jake:in thing. But when you try and
  1349. Jake:do that with gushing water, it just
  1350. Surma:...
  1351. Jake:then sort of sprays out, and
  1352. Surma:...
  1353. Jake:the dirty, metally water
  1354. Jake:sprays all up the nice, white
  1355. Surma:...
  1356. Jake:wall,
  1357. Surma:...
  1358. Jake:making it no longer nice and white anymore.
  1359. Jake:So, yeah, that's going to have
  1360. Surma:...
  1361. Jake:to be redecorated.
  1362. Surma:...
  1363. Jake:Yeah.
  1364. Jake:Well, and it wasn't, and do you know what?
  1365. Surma:...
  1366. Jake:It didn't even solve the problem.
  1367. Surma:...
  1368. Jake:Yes,
  1369. Jake:because Jen's dad came around,
  1370. Surma:...
  1371. Jake:and I,
  1372. Surma:...
  1373. Jake:and he knows DIY, and to be
  1374. Jake:fair, we were both sort of staring at it, going,
  1375. Surma:...
  1376. Jake:why is it doing this?
  1377. Surma:...
  1378. Jake:And he unscrewed a thing, and opened up a thing,
  1379. Jake:and cracked open a thing,
  1380. Surma:...
  1381. Jake:and there was a
  1382. Surma:...
  1383. Jake:frost protection
  1384. Jake:thermostat there,
  1385. Surma:...
  1386. Jake:set to 20 degrees Celsius.
  1387. Surma:...
  1388. Jake:Now,
  1389. Surma:...
  1390. Jake:exactly, yes,
  1391. Surma:...
  1392. Jake:of what I know of science,
  1393. Jake:frost is
  1394. Surma:...
  1395. Jake:not a major concern at 20 degrees.
  1396. Surma:...
  1397. Jake:So.
  1398. Jake:Alright then,
  1399. Surma:...
  1400. Jake:do you have anything more to say for yourself?
  1401. Surma:...
  1402. Jake:Amazing.
  1403. Surma:...
  1404. Surma:...
  1405. Surma:...
  1406. Jake:Absolutely.
  1407. Surma:...
  1408. Jake:Absolutely.
  1409. Jake:Yeah, yeah, the old one hour,
  1410. Surma:...
  1411. Jake:the old neat one hour.
  1412. Jake:Well, I guess with that,
  1413. Surma:...
  1414. Jake:we can thank Shopify for their
  1415. Surma:...
  1416. Jake:sponsoring, letting us do
  1417. Jake:this, and not telling us what
  1418. Surma:...
  1419. Jake:to say and do, and just
  1420. Surma:...
  1421. Jake:paying for the hosting and letting us get on with it.
  1422. Surma:...
  1423. Jake:And the editing, of course.
  1424. Jake:And thanks to Lucas for the editing as well,
  1425. Surma:...
  1426. Jake:who's going to have...
  1427. Surma:...
  1428. Jake:Oh yeah,
  1429. Jake:we're thanking Lucas, but he has to edit this out.
  1430. Jake:That's the rule.
  1431. Surma:...
  1432. Jake:So with that, I guess we'll say,
  1433. Surma:...
  1434. Jake:happy next time!
  1435. Jake:Bye!
  1436. Surma:...
  1437. Surma:...
  1438. Surma:...
  1439. Jake:Right.
  1440. Surma:...
  1441. Jake:Alright, my doorbell's gone now,
  1442. Jake:because it's going to happen to one of us per episode,
  1443. Surma:...
  1444. Jake:so I'm going to go and pick this up.
  1445. Surma:I wonder what Jake is receiving at the door right now...
  1446. Surma:...
  1447. Jake:Thank you very much.
  1448. Surma:...
  1449. Jake:There you go.
  1450. Surma:...
  1451. Jake:Thank you very much.
  1452. Jake:Cheers.
  1453. Surma:...
  1454. Surma:It's kind of nice to know that Jake talks the same way to the post-deliveryman as he talks to me.
  1455. Jake:Okay,
  1456. Jake:I'm back.
  1457. Surma:...
  1458. Jake:Well, you speak
  1459. Surma:...
  1460. Jake:about radiators, and then
  1461. Jake:stuff arrives, I've just received a whole load
  1462. Surma:...
  1463. Jake:of radiator valve automated
  1464. Surma:...
  1465. Jake:ZigBee things.
  1466. Jake:So that's...
  1467. Surma:...
  1468. Jake:Oh yeah, absolutely.
  1469. Surma:...
  1470. Surma:...
  1471. Surma:...
  1472. Jake:Yes!
  1473. Jake:Because it is a very well run
  1474. Surma:...
  1475. Jake:open source project, and I think
  1476. Surma:...
  1477. Jake:there's a lot we could probably learn from it.
  1478. Jake:Yeah.
  1479. Surma:...
  1480. Surma:...
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